[Brooklamprey]

Exotic pets run amok..Weak state laws..No internet controls....What do you think the future holds for our hobby? Well Boys and girls read this document carefully as this is all the buzz on how to correct the problems associated with the Lacey act and seperate state law issues.

This BTW is not far removed from the original ideas the Dept. of the interior brought forth in 1971 that would have federally banned ALL Vertebrates from being imported.

I have said it once and I'll say it again:
If the hobbyists and the pet industry themseves do not begin fixing this mess of released and illegal animals we are all going to lose in the end.

http://www.law.indiana.edu/ilj/volumes/v81/no2/6_Brown.pdf

[Chad]

I think the laws will loosen. Exotics have become second nature in some areas.

[Brooklamprey]

I think the laws will loosen. Exotics have become second nature in some areas.

Chad the laws NOW are as loose as one can get, that is the problem. My community (Scientific and conservation) is beginning to think up new interperetations of Lacey and find a way to make this work more smoothly. Here is the problem.....If the Clean list only idea passes muster we as Hobbyists are in for a serious and nasty awakening where 95% of species now available will disappear overnight.

Unfortunatly a Federal permitting protocal and a Nation wide clean list is also the best and most logical solution given the fact Hobbyists and the pet industry refuse to police themselves. If the Hobbyists or Industry itself does not step up soon, The government will and this make our lives hell.

Snakeheads were a warning shot, if this warning is not recognized much worse is going to occur and soon.......
People need to understand this is no Fuckin joke and this is in the background now just as it has been for 30 years..

Your hobby is in grave danger and if the crap keeps going on you will lose it all......

[Dalic]

Perhaps actually funding the DNR and enforcing laws already written would help lots????

[Chad]

I wish I agreed. I believe the Lacey Act is mainly a political tool. To me, it seems to focus on what fish is in the headlines and the origin of the fish. If the public is scared, they ban the fish.....or so that the government looks like an environmental policeman, they ban the fish if the country of origin calls it endangered.

The "Scare" seems to happen every so often...I know in florida the last big scare was the famed walking catfish. They banned the sucker from import and it's still all over florida. Headlines said it could walk from lake to lake...destroying all in it's wake. It was forgotten. Now you will hear nothing of it. How many people have been cited in Florida (recently) for possessing one of these? I dare to say zero. I could be wrong...but I'd have to see evidence.

Another thing you can rely on is the ignorance of DNR and Fish and Wildlife. They can't recognize the fish when it comes in. I've dealt with fish and wildlife in two different ports. Neither had any idea what my fish were. Both told me they were amazed by them. Many DNR agents have no idea what is banned in their state. When we were putting together the restricted fishes lists, I ran into this several times. Talked to the HEAD biologist in Nebraska...he didn't know if Snakeheads were illegal.

Not everyone is like you Richard. It's a damn shame, but true.

[Brooklamprey]

I wish I agreed. I believe the Lacey Act is mainly a political tool. To me, it seems to focus on what fish is in the headlines and the origin of the fish. If the public is scared, they ban the fish.....or so that the government looks like an environmental policeman, they ban the fish if the country of origin calls it endangered.

The "Scare" seems to happen every so often...I know in florida the last big scare was the famed walking catfish. They banned the sucker from import and it's still all over florida. Headlines said it could walk from lake to lake...destroying all in it's wake. It was forgotten. Now you will hear nothing of it. How many people have been cited in Florida (recently) for possessing one of these? I dare to say zero. I could be wrong...but I'd have to see evidence.

Another thing you can rely on is the ignorance of DNR and Fish and Wildlife. They can't recognize the fish when it comes in. I've dealt with fish and wildlife in two different ports. Neither had any idea what my fish were. Both told me they were amazed by them. Many DNR agents have no idea what is banned in their state. When we were putting together the restricted fishes lists, I ran into this several times. Talked to the HEAD biologist in Nebraska...he didn't know if Snakeheads were illegal.

Not everyone is like you Richard. It's a damn shame, but true.

In many ways you are absolutly correct Chad. The way that the Lacey act is written at this time makes it a powerful yet toothless tool. But it has in it (With revision) the ability and the framework to be a really nasty law. At this time the Lacey act works well when it comes to the smuggling of animal parts or endangered species but it definitly is not so effective in dealing with the problem of invasive species.

The current thinking amoung most in conservation and wildlife is to just flat out ban everything then develop a federal list of "Clean" animals as well as attach heavy permitting functions to those blacklisted. This way, as in the case of the walking cats, the law would prevent the introduction of a species and not just react to an already established population of them. This is the current issue and problem with how the Lacey act and in particular 50 CFR part 16 is worded and enforced. It only acts as a reaction tool to Wildlife and Conservation efforts it does not prevent invasive species and it does not effectivly regulate the Pet industry.

Another thing you can rely on is the ignorance of DNR and Fish and Wildlife.

Oh..... how I know this all to well
Most state DNR and a good number of FWS personnel are all to ignorant of Federal and state laws as well as the knowledge to Identify what is an Illegal fish. (Phil's Trop Gar PIKE).. States also do not have the available funding to enforce their own laws in regards to prohibited and restricted fishes. This is another of the reasons that a Federal rework of the Lacey act is being suggested. Under one Dept. rather than 51 Depts. you get better results with cheaper costs and keep equal standards across the nation and territories. State rights are easily subverted in the area of comerence and a Lacey act redefined could easily add funding attachments to it that could monetarily punish a state for not following the strict line of the federal law...

Invasive species are now costing the US Billions of dollars a year..... this is a big problem and IMHO we as hobbyists need to keep this issue in the back of our heads as it is the Run amok Pet industry that is most in need of reform.

[Jason]

Its interesting that the author didnt mention any of the exotic plants people bring into to beautify their lawns that are running all over the place. "purple loosetrife, kudzu, ect".

i know some uninformed people have caused some havoc and should be punished accordingly for thier actions but this is starting to look like shot gun solution.

personally i get worried that only people in the proffesional sector or those with enough cash will be able to enjoy the hobby. which would thoroughly rule me out.

also i could see them going as extreme as some southern states....if it even looks dangerous or might effect tourism they ban it.

i saw the book the F and W fellow in florida was going through while trying to issue me a ticket and that thing was literally nearly two inches thick, he made three phone calls and still couldnt come up with anything more than fishing with out a license. (my bad but i was ignorant and misinformed, i wont do that again).

also i was wondering about something, the auther mentioned the 'great lobbying" power of the the pet industry....when have they managed to stop a negative law from being passed? i cant seem to think of a time somethng was over turned due to a pet trade lobby. maybe there was something on the import/exporter level but i cant think of anything off the top of my head.

the other thing is i can see a bunch of people rushing the purchase of animals in hopes of grandfathering them in if this ever becomes official and nationwide permits are needed. it happens every time something gets rumored to be bumped up to CITES 1...everyone wants the quick buck of reselling when they cant be brought in anymore or breeders want to lay in as many as possible so they can be breeding a now hard to find animal.

sorry for the lack of caps my keyboard is really messed up today. thats just what crossed mymind when i read that.

Jason

[Brooklamprey]

also i was wondering about something, the auther mentioned the 'great lobbying" power of the the pet industry....when have they managed to stop a negative law from being passed? i cant seem to think of a time somethng was over turned due to a pet trade lobby. maybe there was something on the import/exporter level but i cant think of anything off the top of my head.

As I mentioned above, this idea is not a new one In the 1970's the Dept. of the interior was going to blanket ban all vertebrates from importation and apply a clean list. The PIJAC (Pet industry joint advisory council) Pulled all types of strings and managed to stop it. The result was the Lacey act admendments of 1981 that added 50 CFR part 16 to the law.

[Chad]

Its interesting that the author didnt mention any of the exotic plants people bring into to beautify their lawns that are running all over the place. "purple loosetrife, kudzu, ect".

i know some uninformed people have caused some havoc and should be punished accordingly for thier actions but this is starting to look like shot gun solution.

personally i get worried that only people in the proffesional sector or those with enough cash will be able to enjoy the hobby. which would thoroughly rule me out.

also i could see them going as extreme as some southern states....if it even looks dangerous or might effect tourism they ban it.

i saw the book the F and W fellow in florida was going through while trying to issue me a ticket and that thing was literally nearly two inches thick, he made three phone calls and still couldnt come up with anything more than fishing with out a license. (my bad but i was ignorant and misinformed, i wont do that again).

also i was wondering about something, the auther mentioned the 'great lobbying" power of the the pet industry....when have they managed to stop a negative law from being passed? i cant seem to think of a time somethng was over turned due to a pet trade lobby. maybe there was something on the import/exporter level but i cant think of anything off the top of my head.

the other thing is i can see a bunch of people rushing the purchase of animals in hopes of grandfathering them in if this ever becomes official and nationwide permits are needed. it happens every time something gets rumored to be bumped up to CITES 1...everyone wants the quick buck of reselling when they cant be brought in anymore or breeders want to lay in as many as possible so they can be breeding a now hard to find animal.

sorry for the lack of caps my keyboard is really messed up today. thats just what crossed mymind when i read that.

Jason

Plants fall under the department of ag.....just like snails. Met the fellow from my area. He was very sharp and seemed to have the necessary knowlege. I was impressed.

[Jason]

ah silly me thanks for pointing that out Chad. i should have realized that but i tend to lump invasives under the same thing be they plant animal or the ever present humans.

I'm sure there are some people that do know the species but sadly probably not enough. Oddly enough there are probably better qualified hobbyist for positions like that than the college educated officers (i'm not putting them down but it really helps to have a remote interest in something when doing it for a living).

Jason